It Figures Podcast: S4:E16 – What Talent Really Wants

Audio:

From Carr, Riggs & Ingram, this is, It Figures: The CRI Podcast, an accounting, advisory and industry-focused podcast for business and organization leaders, entrepreneurs, and anyone who is looking to go beyond the status quo.

Sandi Guy:

So welcome everyone to another episode of It Figures. My name is Sandi Guy and I oversee the Human Capital Strategies at Carr, Riggs & Ingram. And this week we’re going to talk about what talent really wants. Over certainly the last couple of years, but it seems like the duration of my career, I am inundated with emails from consultants and publications with all kinds of stats of what talent wants, whether it’s financial benefits or work life benefits. You’re constantly hearing what talent wants for you to be able to recruit and retain them. And sometime those messages can seem to conflict with one another. But when you look back over certainly the last three to four years and all of the things that have been going on in the market for talent and just in the workplace in general, there has definitely been a shift.

And recently, I came across a TikTok. And yes, I do listen to TikTok. I am obsessed. But I came across a TikTok by Simon Sinek, where he was talking about some changes in the workplace. And one of the things he was talking about was that back in the day, and I’m going to say back in the day, even as most recent as the mid to late ’90s, people were loyal to work. To them, they went to work. It was a place to earn a paycheck. But really, where you found your purpose was at church. Where you found your friendships were at home. Where you found your sense of community, the example he used was the bowling league. But over time, everybody’s become a little more insular and now you get those things from work. Now a lot of talent expect their employer to be where they find their purpose, their friendship, their community, their social life.

Now, especially over the last year or two, we seem to find that talent wants their employer to agree with their politics. He even went so far as to suggest that some of the younger workers look to their employer to even be their therapist. Basically, they want to bring all their problems to work. And when he first said that, I kind of scratched my head and I’m like, “I don’t know.” But then I thought, “Yeah, I do spend a large part of my day talking to people about what they’re struggling with.” And we as employers do talk to people about the importance of being able to bring your whole self to work. So is there some truth to that? And I think there is.

But I do believe in the individual and I think really to understand what talent wants, you have to talk to the individual talent. So that’s what we’re going to do today. So what I did, I reached out to two professionals from Carr, Riggs & Ingram that fall within that very highly-sought-after demographic right now in public accounting. They happen to be two audit seniors, but they are certainly in that demographic. And before we dive in, I’m going to have them introduce themselves.

Grant Schumpert:

Absolutely. So I’m Grant Schumpert. I am in our Birmingham office. I have been full-time with Carr Riggs, it’ll be six years here this September. I’m originally from Nashville and I came to Birmingham to go to attend Samford, which is crazy. It’ll be, I’ve here 11 years counting college, coming up this September. And like I said, I graduated from Samford and have been here at CRI ever since. I’ve really enjoyed it. I am married and I have two kids as of about a week-and-a-half ago, which is crazy. And I also turned 30 last week. So a lot of things have been happening in the last couple weeks for me.

Sandi Guy:

Okay. I’m going to feel bad. Did you turn 30 on the day that we were talking last week? Because I’m going to feel bad.

Grant Schumpert:

No, it was-

Sandi Guy:

[inaudible 00:04:34]. So even bring your birthday to work. I was going to feel bad if it was your birthday when we were speaking last week. So my other guest, I did think it was important to have certainly different perspectives at the table, we have Melissa with us as well. So Melissa, tell us a little bit about yourself.

Melissa Wyatt:

Hi, I’m Melissa Wyatt. I’m an audit senior through the Atlanta practice and I’ve been with Carr, Riggs and Ingram since January 19th of 2021. So just a little over two years now. Graduated from the University of North Georgia and came down here. I’m newly wed. I have a new home, and as of yesterday, new kitten. So adding to the family and just trying to navigate through life, new marriage, and the new house, and being with my husband who just so happens to be military. It’s a lot of fun, but it’s a lot of hard work, so.

Sandi Guy:

It’s a lot going on. You also have a very active hobby in photography and I know because I’ve seen the pictures. You do a great job taking engagement photos and all kinds of great stuff, so busy girl, busy girl. So let’s dig in and I want y’all to be honest. We’re going to explore a little bit about what’s important to y’all, what you look for in your employer, and see if some of the things that we’re hearing hold true for people in your stage of life. Clearly, you both have a lot going on, starting families, whether it’s, “Hey, just got married and we committed to a kitten today,” or, “We’ve been married and had a second child and turned 30,” and all the things that come along with that. So let’s start with the big one that we hear a lot about lately,

And the most common thing, I don’t think a day goes by there’s not something in my inbox from a publication or a consultant that doesn’t say, “Everybody wants remote work.” I work remote full time. I have since 2015 and I will say, not personally a fan. I knew when I was going to be working fully remote that it’s just not my nature. I prefer to be in an office if I can. Love my job. Love what I do. But I personally like to have things separate. So we’ll start with you Grant. So do you work remote, hybrid? Do you want to be remote? How important is that remote work to you?

Grant Schumpert:

Well, to start, I’m mostly in the office. I would say pre-COVID I was in the office or at a client 99% of the time. That’s definitely changed some in the last couple years. There’s definitely a lot more ability to work from home if needed. I would say though that I definitely do not want to be a hundred percent remote. I think hybrid can mean so many different things. You talk to different people. I mean, hybrid can mean coming in one day a week. It can mean coming in a couple times a month. Personally, I like coming in, seeing people. I like having my own space. Like you were just saying, I like it being separate from my house. I don’t have a great office set up, especially now with two kids running around. So anyway, for me personally, I would not want to be remote a hundred percent.

I think also being here where I am, I don’t have to get in traffic nearly as much, which I know is a big, depending on where you live, bigger city, even just in Nashville, I know that can be a big game changer if you’re sitting in your car for 45 minutes each way. But I would say one thing that has changed, while I’m not someone who wants to be remote all the time, having that ability to do it when needed, I would say, is close to a [inaudible 00:08:34]. I don’t know hardly anyone now that that would want to do their job and never have the ability to like, “Okay, I need a day to be at home, got to pick my daughter up early,” whatever it is.

If I had to go back to how it was when I started in 2017, that would be tough to not have that option at all. But overall, yeah, I’m not someone who wants to work from home. And it’s interesting, talking to a lot of college kids the last couple years just doing our on-campus visits and whatnot, I’ve yet to have someone tell me that they want to work remote a hundred percent of the time.

Sandi Guy:

Same, same. Exactly the same. Now, I’d be remiss, because as I’m looking at you Melissa, I can tell you’re at home. And I also know that you live far from the Atlanta office, I believe. So what about you? Do you work fully remote, hybrid? And is it what you want, the schedule you want? Would you want to be remote full time?

Melissa Wyatt:

When I first started I didn’t want to be remote, but now that I’ve moved probably an hour away from the office, like Grant said, being able to have the flexibility to work from the office or from my house is super important to me. Some weeks or some days I could just wake up and say, “I don’t really feel like going in. Traffic’s going to be bad. It’s nasty out,” something to that effect and just work from home, which is fine with my team. Now, as an auditor I do have to go out to clients so I can’t really say, “Oh, I’m going to work from home this day.” But I prefer the hybrid model. Now that I’ve gotten to experience the hybrid model, I could not work a hundred percent remote. Definitely a people person. Love to chat. Love the interactions with people in the office. So the hybrid works very well for me.

Sandi Guy:

It’s interesting you talk about the interactions in the office. I was in the Atlanta office recently to do some work and when I was driving back to Charlotte after that I thought, “God, I miss just hanging out.” I got to see you and a lot of other people in there and just that interaction I missed. But, Grant, to your point, I was on campus at Appalachia State not too long ago and we were talking about remote. Not a single person in that group said, it was big off-site, not a single one of them said “Yeah, I want to be fully remote.” It was having flexibility and being able to be hybrid.

As I think back on Atlanta, because the Atlanta office, which they moved into that office, I guess, about a year ago, year or two years ago, it’s pretty fancy pants. It’s a very, very nice, bells-and-whistley office. And the Birmingham office, we all moved into that office before COVID, but it still feels new. But both offices are very nice, in great locations. Again, very fancy, aesthetically-pleasing offices. And we often hear again, the same people who are telling us everybody wants to be remote are also telling us everybody wants fancy workspaces with all the bells and whistles, and the free coffee, and the ping pong tables, and all that kind of stuff. How important is the actual workspace on the days that you’re in there? I mean, obviously, you don’t want to work in a dump, but I mean…

Grant Schumpert:

So we’re a little more, I would say, it’s a good mix. I would not say that we’re a super, new-style open. But all the staff, it is cubes, but they’re all together. So there’s definitely still that team camaraderie. I was in a cube for two or three years. I do have an office now, which I like. I’m someone who I keep my door open most of the time, but it is nice. Something like this, I can go in, shut the door, not have anyone bother me. I think back to your original question, I think it’s important. I don’t think it’s the most important thing to me, personally. I think it sounds like y’all’s office has a little more food options, but it is nice knowing coffee, drinks. I can come in the office. I just take it for granted, honestly.

But you go other places or talk to friends and they’re all, “Oh, y’all have that.” So I think that is a huge plus. I just think we definitely have a nice office. And so I think it’s important. I would say it’s not the most important thing overall. From what I’ve heard, our previous office was not nearly as nice as this. I don’t know if [inaudible 00:13:25].

Sandi Guy:

No.

Grant Schumpert:

Actually, I went to one visit there when I was a college student, but since I’ve been working here, we’ve been in this office. So I absolutely have no complaints. It’s in a great location, which I think is another underrated key, which the firm can’t always do much about that, but for me personally, I can get here in 12 minutes, so. In fact, [inaudible 00:13:45] right downtown is nice.

Sandi Guy:

Plenty of food right across the street in the Summit. If you want to go eat and talk, right across the street there’s plenty of stuff right across. I do like the location in Birmingham. Colonnade’s not a bad place to be. So let’s transition to one of the stereotypes. It’s what people want, but it falls under things you hear about. I hate to say this generation of work, but I’m going to use that terminology. So you hear a lot of people talk about your generation of talent and that they’re not as career-focused and they don’t want to work as hard as other people.

And every time I hear that I’m like, “No, I think I disagree. I think they’re all still driven and want to achieve. They just want to do it differently.” You’re both auditors. So they’re still very driven to be successful auditors. They just want to do it a different way. And I don’t think that means they want to work less, they just want to work differently. So I’m curious. I mean, Melissa, any thoughts on that? If you look at some of the auditors in your practice or just in general, I hate to say how hard do you want to work, but I feel like you’re pretty career-focused. I mean, still you haven’t started a family yet, but you just got married. But I know that you seem very career-focused when you and I speak. Any thoughts on that?

Melissa Wyatt:

I want to work hard, mostly because that’s how I was raised. My parents are pretty old school. But I think the Atlanta practice, most of the audit partners that I do work with are pretty progressive. And they make me want to work hard through appreciating the hard work that I do already, but motivating me through letting me know that I’m doing well and supporting me in my endeavors to get my CPA exam passed, because that’s one thing that I’m striving really hard to get done. But some of the work papers that I’ve been in, I will have to admit, they need to be reworked a little bit and I can get a little pushback.

The way that I want to do it is a lot quicker. It’s automated, but it may not be what was done in the past. So every now and then I get some pushback, but for the most part I don’t think that it stands true that people don’t want to work hard. I do agree that we just want to work smarter when it comes to the work that we’re doing.

Sandi Guy:

I tell you a good podcast topic, maybe the next one we’ll do is on AI and how you can use AI to move forward, but that’s still controversial. But Grant, I’m curious your take on that, because you come from a family that’s in the profession. So you’ve seen people working in public accounting. So it might be second nature to you, but what are your thoughts on that?

Grant Schumpert:

I think it’s not about not working as hard. I think everybody, at least that I’ve worked with, or just about everybody, everybody knows you’re going to have to work hard in accounting. There’s going to be times where there’s going to be longer hours. I think what I would say though is I think myself and maybe people in my generation, as you said, you know there’s going to be times you’re going to have to work a lot. But I think there’s a difference in working a lot and having to work dumb hours. And I think that’s where I would say I’ve drawn the line. And being here almost six years, no one has ever pushed me over that line, of like, personally I don’t want to work, even during busy season, I don’t want to work 70 hours a week.

Even when I started, I was married. Since then, obviously, I’ve added children. I want to be able to see them. I want to be able to not just be working all the time, basically. And of course, for me personally, January, February and March, I’m obviously working more than 40 hours. I’m working a lot of Saturdays. But one thing I’ve always said, and this is true, in six years or almost six years of working here, I think there’s been one night that I haven’t eaten dinner with my wife. Now, occasionally that means I’m coming back home and I’m working a little bit after, but that’s still pretty rare.

Now, I’ll come in early and once again, that’s where the flexibility is so nice in this profession of like, “Okay, if I want to prioritize being home at 6 o’clock or 6:30 or whatever and having the night to be family time, I can come in early and I can work 10 or 11 hours from 7 to 6.” But like I said, it’s not that dumb, what I call dumb, work of like, “All right, we’re working from 8:00 AM to 11:00 PM. We’re going to eat dinner up here. You can leave at 11. I’ll see you back here in eight hours.” And there’s a lot of that in this profession, especially if you have friends and you talk around.

I’ve got a brother who was in Nashville at a different firm and he did that for two years. And he’s gone. And that’s just part of it. Everyone knows that’s the drill. But I don’t think sustainably, long-term, that was never what I wanted to do. And I would’ve bounced after a year or two if that was going to be the case. But I think if you really want to make it a career, or not even a career, but if you want to be there in that mid-range of at least make it five years, which not a lot of people do, I’m sure you’ve got the stats to back that up, but I think balancing out and finding a good middle ground is important.

So I guess, to circle back to your question, yes, I’m still going to work hard. And I know that’s part of it, as you said, coming from family that’s in it. But I don’t personally ever want to be in that spot where it’s just work, work, work, work, work for months out of the year. Occasionally, you may get a week even where it’s crazy and I know that it is what it is for this week and that’s tough. But I don’t think it’s sustainable, at least it’s not for me, working like that over any long period of time.

Sandi Guy:

So let’s talk about a couple of things that we haven’t mentioned that I don’t know if people think about them or I hate to say care about them. But some other things that I think people are looking for, I just don’t know if it’s articulated, what about things like opportunity? And I don’t mean opportunity to be promoted to the next level. Are opportunities to, whether that’s get involved in training and development, to be part of the “faculty” at CRI and do training, or get involved in other aspects of the firm, whether it’s involved in an industry line or things like that, are those things important? Or is it, “Yeah, that’s cool as part of my professional development, but it’s not something I seek out”? How important are those kind of things to y’all? Either one of you, whoever would like to answer.

Grant Schumpert:

I would say it’s definitely a positive. I think I said before. Even more simple than that, I think just, and this takes a couple years to get to this point, or at least it did for me, but I think just knowing that your input is valued, which sounds very simple, but valued at a partner level, basically. Certain decisions, I mean, there can be so many things, so many different ways that manifest itself. But an example for me, is a couple years ago we were not recruiting Samford, where I went. I didn’t think very well, basically to put it bluntly.

And I was probably in my third year. And I went to one of the partners and said, “Look, I’m perfectly happy continuing to do what I’ve done, which is show up to meet the firms, pretend that we have a chance to get some of these kids without doing anything else, and then showing back up to another Meet the Firms. I will keep doing that, but I want you to know if we’re serious about recruiting Samford, this is what we need to do, because I went through it. And I understand pretty much how the game works.” And I didn’t know how that would be received, but I just said, “I just want you all to know that.” And the partners was like, “That’s great. We want you to go recruit and you can basically do whatever you want,” or not do whatever you want but, “you have full reign to go recruit Samford.”

And I was given that. And we’ve had two Samford interns, like Spring 2022, or this past spring, and we’ve got another one coming in next year. So that’s been awesome and I’ve really appreciated that. Like I said, at the time, just a senior was able to just have that frank conversation with a partner or partners. And it definitely felt like I had a lot of trust and was rewarded with that, basically. So that’s just one example. But it’s just that, having that respect level, I guess. And as I said before, that can be so many different things, so many different areas of what you want and what you want to do. But I do think it’s important. I just think it can be a very broad category.

Sandi Guy:

Well, let’s talk about that. And I love that. And what’s funny about that is Samford’s literally just down the street.

Grant Schumpert:

About six to eight minutes, maybe.

Sandi Guy:

It’s just down the street. So you talk about feeling valued. So let’s talk about values. It’s so interesting to me. Again, graduated college in the ’90s, been working professionally since the ’90s. And it’s been so interesting to watch how there were certain things you never talk about at work, never talk about at work, to now, people expect you to not only talk about it, but to put it out there for the whole world. And it’s where organizations release statements on different things going on in the world and all this kind of stuff. And we now have cancel culture and all of that. So which can tie to political opinion. It used to be you wouldn’t talk about politics at work ever, ever, ever, ever.

So when you think about your own values and things like that, how important is it that a company, and we don’t have to single out individual statements, we don’t have to bring politics into this discussion, but is it important to you that your employer make, when certain things are going on culturally in the world, that your employer makes statements or things like that or has those posts? We had a post Monday. God, what’s today? I had to think a moment of what the date was. The dates just fly together. We had a post on Monday. How important is it that your employer makes those statements, whether it’s about certain holidays, observances, or things going on culturally in the world today? Is that important to you? People will tell you, consultants will tell you that it is. Is it?

Melissa Wyatt:

Well, this is where my separation of work and home comes in, because I’m not someone that personally brings politics into work or anything. I do really appreciate when, for example, CRI does make these announcements and recognizes any type of group. But it’s not something that I seek out. And, I guess, that’s more of just an ignorance on my side. I stay away from that stuff, because I don’t really like the conflict that usually follows a conversation like that. So I’m just really neutral on it, to be honest.

Sandi Guy:

It’s hard for me because again, I came up from a place where you don’t talk about that stuff at work. And you don’t ask your employees about that stuff at work. So it’s always been very separate. Grant, any thoughts from you?

Grant Schumpert:

Yeah, I think it’s hard because I think this is such an individual question. My opinion is I don’t-

Sandi Guy:

Depends on what it is.

Grant Schumpert:

Right. Personally, I don’t need CRI making statements on my behalf. Or I don’t need to agree with them. And that would be, I would say, opinions I share or disagree with. You were talking at the start about employees getting more of their worth from work. I enjoy my job. I think my job’s important. But that’s just not where my mind goes on a lot of things. I have other things outside of work that I prioritize and I would say, avenues where I can share my beliefs. I would say I do feel relatively strongly that I think corporations or places of work should stay out of purely controversial issues. I think that posting about holidays is perfectly fine, a wide range of holidays. I think that’s fine. I don’t think that’s going to… Or that shouldn’t be a problem for people.

I think when you talk about companies sticking their neck out on very sensitive, political issues, which goodness knows, there’s a lot of them these days, I just don’t see the benefit of that. I’m not the one running that decision for CRI. And that’s fine, but I would say, in general, I appreciate that CRI, from what I see, stays out of hot-button issues. But again, I guess now, that’s a difference in being a large, regional firm versus all these national companies that are run by different people and feel like they’ve got to make a statement.

Sandi Guy:

It has changed and I don’t feel like it’s been a long time. I mean, again, when I talk about when I was your age, when I was coming up, I’m only talking 20 years ago, so not a long, long, long, long time ago. And it went from you came to work and you did want to be paid competitively. You did wanted to be… You did wanted to be, sorry. You wanted to be paid a competitive wage. You wanted to be given challenging, meaningful work. You wanted the opportunity to grow. And Grant, I love what you said about feeling valued and that your input was valued. You definitely wanted that. But outside of that, I came to work to get a check and then I went home.

I was friends with people at work and I was friendly at work, but that wasn’t my community. But now, it is so different in the things that come into work and the things that people expect from their employer. It is different. It’s so different. Not saying it’s right or it’s wrong. It is just different. And I think you still have to though, you can’t make blatant statements off of that. You still have to engage with people individually, and as they always say, meet people where they are, meaning understand where they are and what they need and go from there.

Grant Schumpert:

Well, and I think one more thing I’ll add to that too, I think maybe some of it’s changed. It’s like, “Well, I don’t want CRI, in my opinion, making big, blatant, political statements and whatnot.” I do think it’s changed some. I’ll come in and have cordial… I can have conversations with people in the office about politics or whatnot, where that’s probably has changed in the last 25 years. ‘Cause obviously, we’re not getting in screaming matches and whatnot that you can quickly find on social media. But I think as long as the conversations and you have real relationships with people, I think you can totally have discourse on sensitive subjects. I just think that I don’t want CRI putting out a blanket statement that’s supposed to speak for me, if that makes sense.

Sandi Guy:

So I’d be remiss, since you’re both high performers that work here, and I love you and I don’t want either one of you to leave, and yes, some of this is I’m picking your brains to make sure you’re happy. Is there anything that would be a deal breaker for you, that if an employer did or didn’t do it would be a deal breaker for you?

Grant Schumpert:

I might be a little different a couple years farther down the road than some people. I do think at this point, if I was just told an absolute, “You have to go do this job, this client,” that I did not want to do, that would be close to a deal breaker. There’s obviously could be exceptions and like, “If it’s just the absolute, only solution for us to get it done,” there obviously would be caveats. But if it was like, “Hey, I’ve told my superiors I don’t want to do any more governments,” and then all of a sudden it’s like, “Okay, Grant, you’re going to go run these two government jobs and it’s going to take four or five months out of your year,” that would something that I honestly, knowing that the leverage you have as a CPA, and especially with my amount of time, that would probably be close.

Luckily, no one has ever done that. My feedback has always been valued, as I said before. And I have gotten my schedule tweaked going back a few years ago, because of opinions or things that I wanted. But I would say that would be the one thing that would be pretty close at this point, is if it’s type of job that I’ve done before and didn’t enjoy and don’t want to do again, then I don’t want it, in general, to be thrown on my schedule with no consultation.

Sandi Guy:

I tell partners all the time, “This is a very common reason people leave firms.” Because if, we’ll use your example of government work, so if somebody says, “Hey, I’ve been doing a little bit of government banking, real estate, whatever, little bit of everything, I want to get more into banking. Not loving the government. If I could roll off of that.” And they never roll you off, and in fact, give you more, okay, there’s a million other firms that’ll be, “Oh, you don’t have to do a drop of government and we’ll give you only banking if that’s what you want.” You’re going to lose that person, which means not only do you not have anybody doing that government, it’s going to be hard for me to go back and find you, because the talent’s smaller.

I would say that’s a very common reason people leave firms, is because they find what they’re enjoying, the types of clients they’re enjoying, and speak up about it and that need’s not met. What about you, Melissa, any deal breakers?

Melissa Wyatt:

I’d have to say the same thing. If a place of work wasn’t able to work with me on moving out of an industry or into an industry that I was interested or disinterested in, then that would have to be a deal breaker for me. But outside of that, this is my first real job in public accounting, so I don’t really have anything to compare to. But just like Grant, if there wasn’t some action after I’ve expressed my distaste for doing something, then that’d probably be a deal breaker for me.

Sandi Guy:

So I’ll open it up to either one of you. I always like to close with any advice. So the obvious would be any advice for management, employers, hiring managers, people who are people like myself, who are the ones who are having to put things in place, make decisions around what “people want.”

Grant Schumpert:

I think I would just say, this sounds simple, but just listening and giving good, clear feedback on things, like that example I just talked about. There would be a major difference in, “All right, we picked up or somebody just left and there’s no other option for this one year to get this job done.” And you just go to me and say, “Hey, Grant, I know you don’t want to work on this, or you may not want to work on this. We understand this is putting you in a tough spot, but we just really need you for this one year.” That is way different than just seeing it come up on your schedule, “And this is what you’re doing.” And I think that that can go for a lot of different things.

I think just constantly communicating. And I think feedback, positive and negative, is big. I know from people at other places, and not just accounting firms, just work in general, I’m hearing a lot of no feedback and then all of a sudden your job’s cut or whatever. And that’s tough. I understand that. A lot goes into that. But I just think constantly keeping that line of communication open is very, very important and something that I value.

Sandi Guy:

Y’all know how I feel about conversations that count. What about you, Melissa?

Melissa Wyatt:

Like Grant said, just make me feel valued. I think it’s super important to make your team feel supported. Don’t overload them with work. Don’t reward your high performers with more work. That’s not a reward. Make us feel respected, trusted, valued. That’s about it. And you get it in return, so.

Sandi Guy:

I do think it is very important to have those one-on-one discussions and understand where people are at in that moment. I personally don’t like to rely on all the little emails I get that tell me, “Here’s what this whole, big group of people want.” I would rather the individual tell me what they want and works with them.

Audio:

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